Beautiful! Zeus is Dead however….God is still alive
“Isaiah 42:1-9 KJV
[1] Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. [2] He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. [3] A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. [4] He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law. [5] Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: [6] I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; [7] to open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. [8] I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. [9] Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.”
Did you know that the Biblical writings from the BC (BCE) predicted a coming “Servant/Messiah” who would bring God’s word to the nations world over? Did you know that Jesus claimed to be that Messiah and claimed that His message would go to the nations world over? Did you know that Jesus predicted both good and bad players in His multicultural kingdom? Did you know Jesus said His kingdom is not of this world? And yet the gates of hell would not prevail against it.
The rest is history….
Trust Jesus over the gods of your age though they may be but mere men! God bless…
1love1god.com 
and yet, you can’t show your god exists any mroe than someone who believes in Zeus can show that it exists. Theists are so funny with their incomptent lies and attempts to all use the same arguments for their imaginary friends. alas, your lies about prophecies fail miserably. You have stories about prophecies, which don’t fit your jesuss, and then you have stories of the prophecies coming true, when no one noticed your jesus at all. Quite the fail.
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What do you mean by “when no one noticed your jesus at all”? And how does the prophecy say in Isaiah 49:6 not fit well with Jesus? Do you have another candidate even close to Jesus? Certainly you are not going to argue Zeus or Thor!
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No one noticed jesus, TJ. No one noticed this guy who was supposedly followed around by enough men to form a roman legion, twice, and this was supposedly in the rebellious province of Judea. No one noticed his miracles despite the bible claiming he was famous around the middle east. Not a single contemporary mention was made about him. No one noticed the major earthquake, the sky darkening or the dead jews wandering around roman-occupied Jerusalem during a passover. The romans, the jews and even paul managed to miss those things.
Isaiah 49 has this:
“Listen to me, O coastlands,
pay attention, you peoples from far away!
The Lord called me before I was born,
while I was in my mother’s womb he named me.2 He made my mouth like a sharp sword, in the shadow of his hand he hid me; he made me a polished arrow, in his quiver he hid me away. 3 And he said to me, ‘You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will be glorified.’
4 But I said, ‘I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nothing and vanity;
yet surely my cause is with the Lord, and my reward with my God.’
5 And now the Lord says, who formed me in the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob back to him, and that Israel might be gathered to him, for I am honoured in the sight of the Lord, and my God has become my strength—6 he says,‘It is too light a thing that you should be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob and to restore the survivors of Israel;I will give you as a light to the nations, that my salvation may reach to the end of the earth.’”
This is about Israel since we have this god saying exactly who this is about “‘You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will be glorified.’” not your imaginary friend. It’s also notable how your jesus fails the claims in Isaiah 49 since he failed miserably in this “‘Kings shall see and stand up, princes, and they shall prostrate themselves,because of the Lord, who is faithful, the Holy One of Israel, who has chosen you.’”
No need for “another candidate” since the whole thing is a story. As for Zeus and Thor, do show that they dont’ exist, TJ. Surely you can, right? It is very hard to show somethign doesn’t exist. It should be easy for you to show your version of the christian god exists, but you can’t.
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Many points could be made in response to your first paragraph. And thanks for clarifying what you were saying.
Jesus did not walk around with a legion of followers all the time. And most of his ministry was in Galilee. There were events where crowds gathered, yes, but there are plenty of incidents where it is just him and his disciples and at best 70 or so followers who, at a point in Jesus’ conversation, left him. He was popular, but he also said things that turned people off, and people were scared to follow Jesus because of the Pharisees and what not. Only 1 of 10 of those he healed at one point returned to thank him. Jesus even criticized people who followed him for the signs and food etc. etc. etc. Jesus was a complicated and complex figure, and still is.
Are you aware of any contemporary historical writings dating to the mid-to-early 1st century?
There are various interpretations from a Christian perspective of the raising-of-the-dead event. It is admittedly curious, but would need to study on that further. I will say this: this seems to be events that didn’t all happen at once during his death, as it reads “many” came out of the graves after Jesus rose from the dead. We don’t know how many and for how long, and they only appeared in Jerusalem, so Paul himself did not witness this and maybe found it hard to believe himself, much like Thomas. So, I’ll leave it there for now on that one.
Now, on Isaiah 49:1-6. You are right that the servant is called Israel. But this servant named Israel is to restore Israel, and so we have 2 Israels. One is the Servant and the other is the yet-unrestored Israel that this servant is to restore. And notice this whole scenario is being spoken to the nations to understand (Isaiah 49:1), and who else but Jesus has been that light to the nations! Jesus is the one who brought Moses, Noah, Adam and Eve, the prophets, and the writings (the Scriptures that both Israelites and Christians believe in). Jesus is the Israeli servant that has been our light and covenant, and many believe that at some point physical Israel will be gathered and restored. I am not entirely sure where I am at on this issue, as I see good arguments on both sides, but Jesus clearly fits the Servant here that is not the unrestored Israel. He is rather the restorer of Israel and the light to the nations.
As far as the “kings and princes,” have ye not read history?
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Many points could be made. Most would be false, and you still have no evidence your imaginary friend exists.
Jesus literally walked around with a legion of followers per the bible at least twice. So your attempts to claim otherwise is just hilarious.
“33 Now many saw them going and recognized them, and they hurried there on foot from all the towns and arrived ahead of them. 34 As he went ashore, he saw a great crowd; and he had compassion for them, because they were like sheep without a shepherd; and he began to teach them many things. 35 When it grew late, his disciples came to him and said, ‘This is a deserted place, and the hour is now very late; 36 send them away so that they may go into the surrounding country and villages and buy something for themselves to eat.’” Mark 6
“In those days when there was again a great crowd without anything to eat, he called his disciples and said to them, 2 ‘I have compassion for the crowd, because they have been with me now for three days and have nothing to eat. 3 If I send them away hungry to their homes, they will faint on the way—and some of them have come from a great distance.’” Mark 8
Yep, the stories have that the crowds eventually stopped coming, and you still have no evience there were any crowds at all, or that jesus christ merely existed. Again, why did no one notice, TJ? Your bible claims that jesus was famous throughout the middle east, and yet no one writes about him and the events around him. The only source you have is the bible which is a set of claims, nothing else. You have no evidence for your 1 in ten nonsense either.
Jesus is a complex figure since the gospels can’t agree on who he was and what he wanted, much like the Christians today. Christians can’t agree if they want to invent a nationalist Christian jesus who hates the poor or a warm fuzzy jesus who is a complete pacifist. This is what happens when you make things up.
yes, I am aware of various historical writings in that period. I do wonder if you mean writings about the history of the period or writings done during that period. Pliny the Elder wrote things, as did Seneca the younger. Lucan wrote things. Notably, the gospels aren’t among them.
Yep, Christians don’t agree on what their bible means, so yep, they each invent what they want the bible to “really” mean. So you have nothing yet again, and can’t show that your jesus existed or the events around him happened. The rising of the dead jews is a problem for your cult and you have to whine about how it needs to be studied. Your cult has had 2000+ years and still can’t agree and still can’t show that any of your nonsense is true.
I do love your version where you have to try to lie and claim that it didn’t happen all at once, when your bible says otherwise. Paul was in Jerusalem at that time, so you have nothing.
“0 Then Jesus cried again with a loud voice and breathed his last.[r] 51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. The earth shook, and the rocks were split. 52 The tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised. 53 After his resurrection they came out of the tombs and entered the holy city and appeared to many.”
So this happened as a result of the death of jesus a singular event that didn’t keep happening. Supposedly ‘many’ people saw them and yet not a single person remarked about that, Jewish or roman or paul. Paul claims to have been raised in Jerusalem and to have been taught by a rabbi who was there “3 ‘I am a Jew, born in Tarsus in Cilicia, but brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, educated strictly according to our ancestral law, being zealous for God, just as all of you are today. “ – acts 22 Paul would have been in Jerusalem for that supposed Passover, so again your myth makes no sense and doesn’t work. Why would the converted paul never mention this when he went out of his way to invent 500 people who saw witnessed the resurrection? Why does he manage to miss the first witnesses of jesus, the women?
Yep, you’ll leave it there since you have nothing.
I know I’m right that your claims about Isaiah 49 are false. No two israels, just the false claims of a Christian who needs to invent prophecies. There is no audience for the speech so your claims about that also fail. Your reasoning is hilariously circular when you claim that only your imaginary friend has been the light to nations. You simply assume jesus is the Jewish messiah when he fails that repeatedly. Jesus did not “bring” any of the old testament and its characters to anyone, but nice false claim yet again.
Curious how Israel has claimed to be gathered already by Christians and yet again, your end times nonsense still hasn’t happened. It’s hilarious how you poor cultists can’t agree about that nonsense either. I really enjoy that so many Christians have had to adjust their “prophecies” since no sign of your god yet. Now rather than going from the 1948 date Christians are scrambling to insist that it really is one of the other dates in Israeli history.
That you have no idea where you are on this issue is further evidence how Christians simply make things up. Your “christ” does not fit the servant since this servant is supposed to be admired by people during its life, and your jesus failed that hard.
The nonsense about kings and princes were references to contemporary ones so your lies fail yet again, dear.
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Concerning Pliny, Seneca, and Lucan… are you aware of any surviving accounts of history they wrote about happenings in Judea, and what their focus was? Did they write about various different religious beliefs or describe the religious life of the time, or did they focus on rebellions, wars, and uprisings?
I stand by my first statement concerning a crowd the size of a Roman legion following Jesus around all the time.
Concerning Paul: Thomas didn’t believe even though his very own friends were reporting on it. Paul could have had a number of different reasons for not mentioning the women to the Corinthians. It could be (though I don’t know for sure) be that he would focus on evidence that would be persuasive to the Corinthians at the time, and mentioning the women would not have added to what he wrote. I assume there could be many different reasons, but this doesn’t mean that he didn’t know about the women himself.
Concerning the 1 in 10, it is Luke 17:11–19, and concerning the appearance of the resurrected ones, it clearly says that after Jesus was resurrected they appeared to many. We do not know how many people they appeared to or whether the appearances were even public, but it is recorded that this did happen after Jesus was resurrected.
Isaiah 49 clearly tells of two Israels. Let’s read it carefully. The servant is clearly called Israel—I fully agree with you! But this servant who is called Israel is to restore Israel. Two Israels. It’s not hard to see; it just takes a fair reading of the text. Jesus has clearly been a light to the nations, as is evidenced by history through His obedient followers:
“And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, ‘All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.’ Amen.” (Matthew 28:18–20)
There has been no other figure in history who has brought the Tanakh to the world and in this way (among others) has been the light to the nations like Jesus.
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Here we go again. Pliny, Seneca, etc wrote about Christians and what they believed not a single one of them said the cult’s belief were true. That you stand by your lies isn’t anything surprising. It doesn’t make them true.
Nothing shows that the apostles, including Thomas, existed. All you have is a fairy tale about someone doubting and sticking their fingers in wounds. Then you try to claim that Paul simply must have had “reasons” why he got his stories wrong and why they contradict the gospels. It’s hilarious how you cultists have to constantly have to add nonsense to your bible to make it make the least amount of sense. Do explain why not mentioning the women would have been okay since they supposedly had the honor of being the very first to witness the resurrection.
Curous how no one mentions dead jews wandering around at all. The bible does indeed say they appeared to many, and no one saw fit to mention this. ROFL. Then you have to make up evne more lies to add to your bible to try to explain why no one mentioned them. It’s hilarious how you then try to claim that your bible is evidence for itself, with the one in ten nonsense.
It’s lovely how you also try to claim that the dead must have been seen in private. Curious how your bible doesn’t agree with that either. “53 After his resurrection they came out of the tombs and entered the holy city and appeared to many. 5”
Isaiah 49 does not show two israels. Sure, let’s read it carefully.
“And he said to me, ‘You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will be glorified.’”
And
“And now the Lord says, who formed me in the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob back to him, and that Israel might be gathered to him,for I am honoured in the sight of the Lord,
and my God has become my strength—6 he says, ‘It is too light a thing that you should be my servant, to raise up the tribes of Jacob and to restore the survivors of Israel;”
It is confusing which is nothing surprising. The book of Isaiah repeatedly has that Israel, the entity of the culture, is the servant. There is no instance of jesus being considered the nation of Israel or a servant. Jesus has not been a light to nations, since Christians can’t even agree onwhcih version is the right one. Funny how world rulers had no idea jesus existed much less thinking he had any authority at all. Christians must make false claims since their supposed messiah failed to be of any interest to world rulers at all when he was supposedly alive, which is what Isaiah claims.
Unsurprsingly, your jesus didn’t bring the tanahk to the world since you Christians have managed to mangle it and ignore what it says.
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Curious to know what they wrote about the Christians? And I am not expecting a worshipper of Zeus or Plato or what not to write a Biblical account of Jesus anyhow…
Again, I stand by what I typed on the issue of Paul. Again, there could have been ample reasons as to why he did not mention the women or the many that appeared to many at the holy city only.
I stand behind the passage in Isaiah 49:6 that there is a servant named Israel that will restore Israel and be a light to the nations! Jesus has been a light to the nations! There has been no other that has brought Scripture awareness to the nations like what He founded. Jesus, said to expect tares amongst the wheat and the apostle Paul and Peter pigging backing of Jesus both said the same.
And yet none the less the Scriptures have been translated into more languages than any other book hands down and that done by disciples of Jesus Christ thru out the ages of Christianity even in their various denominations and sects.
“For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord, As the waters cover the sea.” Habakkuk 2:14
“And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.” – Luke 24:47
The rest is history…
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I know what ancient writers have written about Christians. Again, not a single one said what Christians believed was true.
A worshipper of one religion can write about others. Christians often write about Islam and various pagan religions, so shall we discount their claims?
That you stand by nonsense is nothing new. That still doesn’t make it true. You claim “ample reasons” and have none. Like many religions, you simply assume that your cult’s nonsense has reasons behind it and isn’t baseless nonsense.
Jesus has not been a light to nations since there is no one jesus. Christians do not agree on what their “scriptures” even mean, so all your cult does has splintered and murdered each other over your differences. Paul contradicts jesus, so your claims are rather silly.
There are at least three completely different bibles and not one of them can be shown as any better than the rest. That nonsense can be translated doesn’t mean it’s true. Christians can’t even agree on the translations, so again your argument fails miserably.
Nice verse from Habakkuk, but again reality shows how Christians can’t even agree on which “lord” is the right one. History shows how your cult can’t agree on the most basic things.
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“shall we discount their claims?” No we shouldn’t and I wouldn’t discount the pagan writers writing about Christinaity but I also wouldn’t expect them to believe it as I dont expect Christian writers to believe the pagan beliefs.
More people know about the Tanakh because Jesus entered history as opposed to not. He does indeed historically fulfill what the prophets predicted!
The divisions have always been there from the get go and always will be. Jesus predicted this and so did the New Testament writers and it has always been the case in Israel amongst all the extinct false gods/baals of those days and yet Yahweh is proclaimed unlike any other has ever been proclaimed and you can thank Christ thru the Church for that.
“Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.” – Ephesians 3:20,21
P.S. – Can I at least get you to ponder the possibility that Christianity has brought the Tanakh to more lands and people groups and languages and tribes and cultures than Jews who do not believe in Jesus have?
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So your prior claim “And I am not expecting a worshipper of Zeus or Plato or what not to write a Biblical account of Jesus anyhow…” is now contradicted by your current claim “No we shouldn’t and I wouldn’t discount the pagan writers writing about Christinaity but I also wouldn’t expect them to believe it as I dont expect Christian writers to believe the pagan beliefs.”
Belief is not needed to document what a cult believes. That documentation oesn’t make a cult’s beliefs true.
Most people have no idea what the Tanakh says, especially Christians. You all do your best to ignore what it says and what jesus says to follow. So your nonsense fails hilariously. The Jewish messiah is to have admiration from worldly leaders while alive. Poor ol’ JC really missed that mark. Christians do not follow the Jewish laws, so JC also failed miserably on that too. The Jewish messiah is said to not be violent, and to not speak during his trials. JC fails with that.
Yes, divisions in your cult have been there since it started which shows your imaginary friend is notably incompetent in getting its message across using puny humans. It is no magical prediction to know how humans act, so you also fail with that one. That your particular god is unique doesn’t make it any more true. Allah is also proclaimed unlike any other so I guess the muslims are right per your own argument.
Curious how your god doesn’t do anything at all, so nattering from your cult’s book doesn’t help other than show how it fails miserably.
Again, Christianity, the many many versions of it, has not spread the Jewish law or knowledge. Christians themselves are hilariously ignorant about what the tanakh even says. And even if Christianity did do what you claim? that still doesn’t make you cult’s lies true.
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The Tanakh says clearly in Isaiah 49:6
1) that there is a servant who is named Israel that is to restore Israel. (Clearly two different Israels!).
2) And that this servant named Israel will be a light to the nations NOT the to-be-restored Israel. Plain and simple…
If you disagree with this than I argue that you disagree with the Tanakh and not me.
Jesus fits the Servant of the Lord description because only this Israelite has indeed been a light to the Gentiles and has been the Lord’s salvation unto the ends of the earth. There is nobody else in history who has done this!
Notice that Isaiah 49:1 is an address to the nations by this Servant, and I am a Gentile who is reading what this Servant is saying to me. It is because of Jesus that I care about the Tanakh, not the to-be-restored Israel. The Gentiles have been and are being saved and enlightened because of Jesus, thus proving Him to be the Servant of the Lord to us—remembering that this is addressed to us so that we may know.
History proves this prophecy to be about Jesus, as this prophecy predicted beforehand that this would happen in history, and only Jesus fits the description and no the to-be-restored Israel.
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TJ, your jesus failed to do what this god says the Jewish messiah will do: “And now the Lord says, who formed me in the womb to be his servant,to bring Jacob back to him,
and that Israel might be gathered to him,”
The jews are jews since they didn’t accept this jesus, so your cult’s nonsense fails completely.
Not a single king or ruler of the time even noticed jesus, which makes this another fail for your jesus: “‘Kings shall see and stand up, princes, and they shall prostrate themselves,because of the Lord, who is faithful, the Holy One of Israel, who has chosen you.’”
You make up nonsense and I disagree with you and your inventions. You are a “gentile” who needs to pretend that their imaginary friend jesus is something it is not. You need to pretend you are the “chosen” in the usual vanity of Christians.
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“your Jesus failed to do what this God says the Jewish Messiah will do.”
Namely the restoration of Israel, right?
Isaiah 49:4 predicts that this Servant will say: “I have labored in vain… and yet my reward is with the LORD and my work with my God.” And then He states His mission in vs. 5—to bring Israel back, as you state—but this is “too small a thing,” but that He will also be a light to the Gentiles and God’s salvation to the end of the earth. This Jesus has wonderfully succeeded at. Jesus has been proclaimed and continues to be so to the ends of the earth as God’s salvation, and His failure is the restoration of Israel—for now, anyhow—as the light goes out to the nations.
Even Jesus Himself predicted this when talking about the restoration of Israel in Acts:
“Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, ‘Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?’ And He said to them, ‘It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.'” – Acts 1:6-8
Notice that some rejection of this Servant by a people must happen before He is worshipped by kings and princes (Isaiah 49:7). Isaiah 52:13-15 sheds more light on this. Notice the Servant here is “marred more than any man.” He then says, “So shall He sprinkle many nations,” and then the “kings” “shall see,” and “consider.”
This has been fulfilled in history. It is clear who Messiah is! Now all that is needed is the restoration of Israel, but that doesn’t mean that is not to come.
Again, there are two Israels, and we Gentiles are told by this Servant in Isaiah 49:1 (not the to-be-restored Israel but the Israel that is to restore the to-be-restored Israel) that His mission is to restore Israel and be a light to the nations. But He must first be rejected and despised, and then the message goes everywhere. So, He has indeed failed in the restoration of Israel as He has been rejected by the unrestored Israel, but this is too light a thing—He will go to the nations and be believed upon everywhere, and it is not for us to know the times of restoration of Israel. I suppose when the to-be-restored Israel starts trusting in Jesus—who has been fulfilling the mission to Gentiles in Isaiah 49:6 all this time, then maybe then!
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! See! Your house is left to you desolate; for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ” – Matthew 23:37-39
Jesus has been the light to the nations and has been God’s salvation to the ends of the earth. We amongst the nations are indeed trusting in the Servant that this message from the Servant is going out to.
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Nope, dear, since it was humans who allowed Israel to be formed in Palestine. Your imaginary friend was no where to be found. But nice failed lie, TJ. The Jewish messiah is supposed to do the following and JC failed. That’s why you frauds had to invent a “second coming”.
There was no global era of peace. There is no just government in Israel. The temple was not rebuilt. Israel’s neighbors never became peaceful with Israel. All jews aen’t in israel despite the fact that they could go if they wanted to. And funny how jesus was never part of the Davidic line since his dad wasn’t Joseph, it supposedly was this imaginary friend of yours.
You still return to the dog’s vomit of Isaiah 49. Funny how your jesus fails at that. Israel was not restored at all during JC’s supposed lifetime, whenever that supposed was since even Christians can’t agre. There is one Christianity, so jesus failed miserably in having one supposed “truth”.
Funny how Acts shows how the incompetent authors of the bible books lie and how you lie. This jesus says that there is no way to know when he will return, so the lies of Christians about prophecy fail hilariously. It also shows that jesus lied about the ‘holy spirit” since no one noticed these apostles at all and most certainly not having magical powers as claimed.
““Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, ‘Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?’ And He said to them, ‘It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.’” – Acts 1:6-8“
Isaiah 49 mentions nothing about rejection, so you again lie, dear. All of Isaiah 53 is abouat a living person, not a dead imaginary friend. Again, curius how your Jesus failed yet again:
“See, my servant shall prosper;
he shall be exalted and lifted up,
and shall be very high.
14 Just as there were many who were astonished at him[b]
—so marred was his appearance, beyond human semblance,
and his form beyond that of mortals—
15 so he shall startle[c] many nations;
kings shall shut their mouths because of him;
for that which had not been told them they shall see,
and that which they had not heard they shall contemplate.”
Jesus was not lifted up and was not exalted during his life, so you lie yet again. dear. There is nothing about jesus being marred in appearance, and his form being beyond what mortals know. No one was startled by a little Jewish guy. And it’s hiliarious that you use a translation that has “sprinkle”. At least the NRSV admits that the word translated as that is unknown since sprinkle makes no sense. BTW, the word “him” is actually you in Hebrew, so yet again the cultists of the bible can’t agree on how to interpret it.
Again, no one was startled or sprinkled by jesus so you fail yet again. No restoration of Israel, and again you poor dears keep moving the goalposts on that.
You gentiles are told nothing in a book that was written for the jews, so nice set of lies there too. It’s hilarious how now you invent more nonsense to try to salvage your cult’s liles, with now insisting that this messiah has to be rejected when Isaiah does’nt say that. You are a fraud and a failure.
Yep, the book of matthew does have that bit of stupidity since this cult tries to supplant the other. It’s lovely how impotent this god is.
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You say, “Isaiah 49 mentions nothing about rejection….”
The Tanakh says Isaiah 49:4,7 “I have labored in vain; I have spent my strength for nothing at all…to him who was despised and abhorred by the nation, to the servant of rulers”
You say, “All of Isaiah 53 is abouat a living person….”
The Tanakh says Isaiah 53:8,9 “he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was punished. He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.”
You quoted the end of Isaiah 52 and note this further illustrates my point on the rejection/despising/marring/spending strength for nothing/etc etc precedes the kings and startling/sprinkling of the nations:
The Tanakh says as you quoted, “Just as there were many who were astonished at him[b]—so marred was his appearance, beyond human semblance, and his form beyond that of mortals—so he shall startle[c] many nations; kings shall shut their mouths because of him; for that which had not been told them they shall see, and that which they had not heard they shall contemplate.”
You said: “You gentiles are told nothing in a book that was written for the jews….”
The Tanakh says otherwise: “Listen to me, you islands; hear this, you distant nations: Before I was born the Lord called me; from my mother’s womb he has spoken my name.”
Take care for now….
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And yet more repetition of nonsense that fails to show your jesus existed or that this character was the Jewish messiah. Curious how jesus wasn’t a servant to rulers. It’s notable how you have to add ellipses to avoid how your claims fail.
This is what it actually says and you have to lie to make it work for your jesus.
“But I said, ‘I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nothing and vanity;yet surely my cause is with the Lord, and my reward with my God.’5 And now the Lord says, who formed me in the womb to be his servant,o bring Jacob back to him, and that Israel might be gathered to him,for I am honoured in the sight of the Lord, and my God has become my strength—
6 he says,‘It is too light a thing that you should be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob
and to restore the survivors of Israel;I will give you as a light to the nations, that my salvation may reach to the end of the earth.’
7 Thus says the Lord, the Redeemer of Israel and his Holy One,to one deeply despised, abhorred by the nations, the slave of rulers,‘Kings shall see and stand up, princes, and they shall prostrate themselves,because of the Lord, who is faithful, the Holy One of Israel, who has chosen you.’
You pick and choose like all Christian frauds, TJ, so I’m still not impressed.
Yep, Isaiah 53 is about a living person, and curious how your jesus fails at all of this since Jesus beat people in the temple, and wasn’t silent during his trials. And yet again, Isaiah 52 fails to support your claims either since this jesus failed at what he was supposed to do. Jesus never got the jews to believe in him.
Jesus was not “marred” and unsurprisingly, his form was fine since no one commented on it at all. Again, curious how kings don’t shut their mouths because of your imaginary friend.
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You said, “Jesus was not “marred”
Not just me though: “Scholars nearly universally accept the historicity of Jesus’ crucifixion” – wikipedia
Your other comments I have already responded to and so I will leave it to my prior responses. Take care…
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Scholars don’t universally accept the historicity of the cruxifiction of jesus christ. Some think that there is a greater probability of a delusional jewish man being cruxifed for bothering the romans, but they do not agree that some magical being was cruxified.
BTW, Isaiah is speaking about the messiah as being alive and marred. Not after he was dead. You’ve failed again.
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You said, “Scholars don’t universally…”
I actually said quoting Wikipedia: “Scholars NEARLY universally….” Crucifixion of Jesus – Wikipedia
You said, “Isaiah is speaking about the messiah as being alive and marred…”
And so, He was marred as he was living. The New Testament and the NEARLY all Scholars agree that Jesus was marred.
However, this servant will also die as Isaiah 53:12 makes most clear and it is because of the dying of the servant that the bearing of iniquities is dealt with. This is what the nations and kings etc etc will come to understand and see.
This has indeed happened and is continuing to happen.
“Yea, He saith: ‘It is too light a thing that thou shouldest be My servant To raise up the tribes of Jacob, And to restore the offspring of Israel; I will also give thee for a light of the nations, That My salvation may be unto the end of the earth.’” – Isaiah 49:6
“And he said unto them, It is not for you to know times or seasons, which the Father hath [e]set within his own authority. But ye shall receive power, when the Holy Spirit is come upon you: and ye shall be my witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea and Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. And when he had said these things, as they were looking, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.” – Acts 1:7-9
This is all clearly written before this all came to pass…
“Behold, the former things are come to pass, And new things do I declare; Before they spring forth I tell you of them” – Isaiah 42:9
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Again, still no evidence for jesus christ, or any cruxifiction. Again, your nonsense about universal agreement or “near” universal agreement is still nonsense.
Isaiah has that this messiah was not cruxified but was marred and yes, while he was living. Not when he was being supposedly tortured to death. Again, your “prophecies” fail.
In Isaiah 53 it mentions a man who hasn’t used violence and yet yur jesus does. It mentions a messiah who went to his trials and did not speak. Again, jesus christ speaks at length to the Jewish authorities and to pilate.
Jesus failed to get the jews to believe in his story. I guess god failed to remember that requirement from Isaiah 49.
Yep, more nonsense from Acts, since no one has received power, and from the very beginning of Christianity there were different versions. Unsurprisngly, the gospels don’t agree with Acts either which is always amusing.
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You said, “Isaiah has that this messiah was not crucified but was marred, and yes, while he was living. Not when he was being supposedly tortured to death.”
I agreed while he was living also. But you add, “when he was being supposedly tortured to death.” Why could he not be marred while living and on his way to his death, or the marring being part of his torturous death?
You said, “he opened not his mouth,” and since Jesus did open his mouth, that he violated this prophecy. Both Christians and Jews alike are in agreement that this doesn’t literally mean that this Servant had his mouth closed the whole time during his oppression and was breathing through his nose. He didn’t fight the injustice that was being handed to him. He courageously accepted it as He was being sacrificed like “a lamb”.
And the same thing would go for the violence. He did not retaliate but willingly gave himself “as a lamb.”
You said, “Jesus failed to get the Jews to believe in his story.” I stand behind my prior comments on this subject, but I will add this to them.
Isaiah 49:6 says of the Servant of the Lord that this Servant will bring light to the nations and be the Lord’s salvation to the ends of the earth.
The candidate that best fulfills this prophecy has a great right in interpreting these passages Isaiah 49, 52, 42, 53, etc., etc.
History has been written for the last 2000 years, and there is none like Jesus who has been the light to the Gentiles and God’s salvation to the ends of the earth. This is no small feet mind you.
And for this reason, and many others, I place great weight on His interpretation of Isaiah 49, and His is clear:
“When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.” — Acts 1:6–8
Now, has not this happened? And I’m just curious as to when do you believe Acts was written — before or after the last 2000 years and the spread of the witness “unto the uttermost part of the earth.”
Take care for now…
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It’s hilarious how you “admit” things only when your lies are revealed.
Again, how Isaiah 49 reads and how Isaian 53 reads is that this messiah was marred during his ministry, so you still fail. If you have to say “why couldn’t it be….” You’ve lost the argument.
You have to simply lie to make the Jewish messiah match your cult’s nonsense. Unsurprsingly, jews aren’t in agreement since they don’t believe jesus was their messiah. Nice fail there too, TJ. It’s hilarious how you try to lie and claim that what it literally says in Isaiah 53 is wrong. Isaish 53 says silent, and says nothing about breathing. You are such a lovely fraud. Thanks for showing how Christians must lie.
“He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth;like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth.” – NSRV
“7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.” KJV
Then you try to lie and claim the violence was during his arrest. Curious how Isaiah 53 doesn’t say that either:
“9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.”
Unsurprisngly, jesus is violent: “13 The Passover of the Jews was near, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 14 In the temple he found people selling cattle, sheep, and doves, and the money-changers seated at their tables. 15 Making a whip of cords, he drove all of them out of the temple, both the sheep and the cattle. He also poured out the coins of the money-changers and overturned their tables.” John 2
That you stand behind false claims doesn’t make them true. You fail yet again since this jesus failed to bring any “light” to nations, and Christians can’t agree on who is saved and how they are saved. Again, your jesus fails to be the messiah who restores the temple.
He also fails with this:
“He will not cry or lift up his voice, or make it heard in the street;3 a bruised reed he will not break, and a dimly burning wick he will not quench; he will faithfully bring forth justice.
4 He will not grow faint or be crushed until he has established justice in the earth; and the coastlands wait for his teaching.”
History has indeed been written for 2000+ years and there is no evidence for your jesus existing. History shows how Christians can’t agree on which jesus is the right one and not one can show that any of the essential events in the bible happened. There is no salvation, just the myths of a cult.
Unsurprsingly, jesus doesn’t “interpret” Isaiah 49 since Jesus didn’t exist. All you have is a story about a prophecy and a story about it being fulfilled. The author of Acts has the typical excuses of a cult that failed in its predictions and has to make false claims. Curious how no one received any “power” at all. Isaiah 49 says “22 Thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I will lift up mine hand to the Gentiles, and set up my standard to the people: and they shall bring thy sons in their arms, and thy daughters shall be carried upon their shoulders.
23 And kings shall be thy nursing fathers, and their queens thy nursing mothers: they shall bow down to thee with their face toward the earth, and lick up the dust of thy feet; and thou shalt know that I am the Lord: for they shall not be ashamed that wait for me.”
Curious how that has never happened. Per scholars, Acts was written between 8 and 13 decades after the supposed existence of jesus. The website, Early Christian Writings has a very good write up on how Acts is quite problematic. Since Christians can’t agree on which version is the right one, you can’t claim they have spread around the earth.
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You said, “All you have is a story about a prophecy and a story about it being fulfilled.”
I would agree if what you mean by “a story about a prophecy” is an ancient prophetic writing dated before Jesus (that NEARLY all scholars though some do not agree existed) is claimed to exist that describes a Servant of the Lord who will go global. The only figure—claimed or not—who has historically done this is the Jesus (who is claimed to exist by most historians Christian and secular) of historic Christianity.
By the way, I stand behind everything I said in the prior post and will let it stand as a plausible interpretation influenced by the above claimed fulfiller of Isaiah 49:6.
Wikipedia reports that scholars date Acts at about 80 to 90 AD but let us give you the 8 decades after Jesus which would be 113 AD. I would disagree with this but let’s give it that for argument’s sake.
Do you believe Christianity had spread to the utter ends of the earth by 113 AD?
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That you would disagree with a fact isn’t anything new. Unsurprsingly, jesus fails to be the Jewish messiah. Christians have tried to make the old testament writings match with their imaginary messiah for centuries, and they cherry pick to do so. Again, a historical jesus isn’t your magical one, and appeals to it fail as evidence for your magic jesus.
There is no servant of the lord who has “gone global” since Christians themselves can’t even agree on which version of their god is the right one. Christians don’t believe in the same version of jesus or god. Each makes up their own version. I can see that just here in the US where we have maga idiots with their white jesus who hates immigrants, and the liberal jesus who is a Jewish guy who is all aboat helping the poor and sick.
Christian history shows how it has splintered repeatedly and violently. That you stand behind baseless nonsense doesn’t make it true. Your “plausible interpretation” depends on lying about what the bible actually says. That’s nothing new when it comes to a Christian.
Funny how one coherent version of Christianity still hasn’t spread to the ends of the earth in 2026. In 113 AD, Christian still hadn’t made it to the far east, Scandinavia and the Americas.
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The only one who has fulfilled Isaiah 49:6 is this infamous world-renowned Jesus who continues to endure to this day (2026) as predicted/prophesied well beforehand by Isaiah 49:6 and Acts 1:6–7, even with the expected tares amongst the wheat—as it was back in Corinth around 50 AD, so it is in 2026 AD.
Paul makes a very early formulation of the gospel by which one must believe to be saved in 1 Corinthians 15. This letter of Paul’s is considered authentic and is dated to the 50s AD by most all scholars from all perspectives. This gospel is clear and is believed by me and billions of others throughout the last 2000 years. I for one am not confused. I wish you weren’t either. Now we also see in 1 Corinthians much division, but this doesn’t nullify the clear message. The gospel is the most famous message of all time, and it is the message—if believed—that one is saved by.
And this message has indeed spread to the ends of the earth. And all of mainstream Christianity (Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox) agree with Paul!
Jesus did predict that there will always be the tares amongst the wheat. We see it in 1 Corinthians and Galatians, but there will always be the wheat as we see in 1 Corinthians and to this day.
You said, “In 113 AD, Christians still hadn’t made it to the far east, Scandinavia, and the Americas.”
Has it now?
Jesus and His Gospel has earned the rightful interpretation of Isaiah 49:6 by being the only one who has fulfilled Isaiah 49:6.
https://grok.com/share/c2hhcmQtNQ_7c1095c7-c1bc-47b7-abeb-d0587b8ab363
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Ah, always more fail from TJ. Unsurprsingly, you can’t show that jesus merely existed, much less fulfilled any prophecies, dear. Again, you have stories about prophecies being made and stories about them being fulfilled, no evidence at all to support those stories. Isaiah 49 still fails since this jesus was never a “light to nations”. Christians can’t even agree on which jesus is the right one.
Paul makes up nonsense and has no idea what the gospels said since they were written after he supposedly existed. 1 Corinthians shows repeatedly that Paul has no idea what jesus supposedly said since Paul repeatedly contradicts jesus. That ignorant humans like you and billions more believe in nonsense doesn’t make it true, and again, Christians don’t agree on the most basic things so there are no “billions” who all agree on the same thing. You are a very poor liar, dear. You are just one more addled human who insists only his version of Christianity is the right one.
Christians don’t even agree on what Paul means in 1 corinthians since they can’t agree on what parts of it to use and what parts to ignore. Curious how Paul says to not let women speak in churches, and billions of Christians have no problem with that. Of course elsewhere in Corinthians, women are speaking in church, so you have incoherent nonsense yet again. Hmm, should women cover their heads or not? Yet again more nonsense that Christians can’t agree on.
Then we have this from Paul “50 What I am saying, brothers and sisters,[l] is this: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I will tell you a mystery! We will not all die,[m] but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable body must put on imperishability, and this mortal body must put on immortality. “ 1 Corinthians 15 which belies the claims in the gospels that jesus was resurrected in the same human flesh he had.
So, unsurprisingly, Christians, even mainstream Christians, do not agree with their bible or with paul. They can’t agree on how they are resurrected. They can’t agree on jesus supposedly resurrected. They make nonsense up.
Jesus predicted nothing, being imaginary. The authors claiming “tares” with wheat are doing no more than noticing how cults work. Every Christian claims to be the “wheat” and claims that everyone else is the “tares” and yet you poor dears can’t agree on which of your nonsense is the right one.
It’s great how you fail yet again with being too ignorant to know that in 113 CE, there were no Christians in the Americas, in Scandanavia, etc. That you have to use an idiot AI like “grok” shows just how you’ve failed, TJ. I always enjoy when frauds show how their cult doesn’t work.
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So, you don’t like grok. I will just let wikipedia refute your position on Christianity and making some closing comments unless you bring something new to the discussion:
“Christianity is an Abrahamic monotheistic religion, which states that Jesus is the Son of God and rose from the dead after his crucifixion, whose coming as the messiah (Christ) was prophesied in the Old Testament and chronicled in the New Testament. It is the world’s largest and most widespread religion with over 2.3 billion followers, comprising around 28.8% of the world population. Its adherents, known as Christians, are estimated to make up a majority of the population in 120 countries and territories.
Christianity remains culturally diverse in its Western and Eastern branches, and doctrinally diverse concerning justification and the nature of salvation, ecclesiology, ordination, and Christology. Most Christian denominations, however, generally hold in common the belief that Jesus is God the Son[note 2]—the Logos incarnated—who ministered, suffered, and died on a cross, but rose from the dead for the salvation of humankind; this message is called the gospel, meaning the “good news”. The four canonical gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John describe Jesus’ life and teachings as preserved in the early Christian tradition, with the Old Testament as the gospels’ respected background.”
I believe this strongly supports the position I’ve been presenting. In 1 Corinthians, we see a clear presentation of the Gospel message already in place by around 50 AD—a message that remains easily understood today by myself and countless believers throughout history. While the Corinthian church did experience some divisions, those differences did not obscure or undermine the central, saving message of the Christian faith. This aligns with what Wikipedia also describes regarding the early clarity and enduring message of the Gospel.
In my view, emphasizing non-essential matters—such as differing interpretations of head coverings or opinions about women preaching—does not change the fundamental truth of how a person is saved eternally.
Jesus has uniquely served as the light to the nations, leading people to salvation in a way no one else ever has. In doing so, He has fulfilled the remarkable prophecy of Isaiah 49:6, a promise of enormous significance. He has therefore earned the rightful authority to interpret not only Isaiah 49, but all of Scripture—from Genesis through Exodus and beyond.
Because of this, I choose to trust in Jesus’ interpretation of the Scriptures rather than my own, yours, or anyone else’s. While I’ve carefully considered your perspective, I haven’t yet found a compelling reason to change my position, so I remain convinced of the truth of Jesus and His message.
At this point, I’m not sure what more I can say, except that I will continue to pray for you. May God bless you.
“When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judæa, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.” – Acts 1:6-9
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity
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Well, that’s nice. Alas, Wikipedia doesn’t show I’m wrong and you fail yet again.
You still have no evidence that your version of Christianity or any version of Christianity is true. You have yet to show that your god exists. Yep, Christianity makes lots of statements, and not one of them can be shown as valid. Christianity is indeed diverse, and can’t agree on the most basic things, making different versions constantly.
The Wikipedia article says nothing about this nonsense being supposedly true, and offers no evidence that it is, just like the ancient writers who wrote about what Christians believed. The gospels differ vastly from Paul’s letters, and 1 Corinthians 15 shows just how bad that is, with Paul insisting that there was no physical resurrection. So the claims from the gospels of a physical resurrection of Christ’s injured body is nonsense to Paul.
We can see that Christians did not agree on the most basic things yet again. It’s hilarious that you still repeat the same lies as usual, claiming major doctrinal differences are “non-essential matters”. Sorry, dear, that doesn’t work since disagreeing on who is saved, how they are saved (is it works, grace, belief, childbirth, some combination of these?), free will vs predetermination, and disagreeing on what parts of the bible are literal, metaphor, etc all are major differences that you poor dears have murdered each other over. If they weren’t major, that means you Christians were just idiots in burning each other at the stake.
Again, no unique “light to nations” since the many many nations have ignored this cult’s nonsense. No salvation and no agreement on how that works. No prophecies fulfilled at all. It’s hilarious how then you claim that you have some right to interpret Isaiah 49 anyway you want, which is what all cultists do. No jesus to do any interpreting, just humans who splintered off of Judaism and needed to feel special.
Yep, no interpretation of the scriptures by jesus, just humans who invented a character that they were really incompetent with when it came to fulfilling what the OT promised. You haven’t considered anything, dear, just repeated the same old lies as usual.
Your prayers still fail so that shows you aren’t a follower of christ at all per your own bible. Strange how this god doesn’t even bless its followers.
Nice quote from more nonsense, TJ. Not a single one of you christains has received any power, and you poor dears can’t even agree if miracles still happen or not.
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And yet the gospel shines thru like nothing else does as even wikipedia admits! Even with the tares amongst the wheat for the last 2000 years…
The cross is preached and people believe and are saved whether they believe it was free will or predestination. All over this beautiful globe…like no other!
The divisions in Corinth 2000 years ago did nothing to the clarity of the Gospel in 1 Corinthians 15 and they have done nothing to the clarity today. The gospel is clear and the rest is working it out. God bless…
“Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will: the one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds: but the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel. What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.” – Philippians 3:15-18
And so do I! Even thru it all I believe and so should you. Jesus has been a light to this gentile amongst the nations…God bless
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ROFL. It’s hilarious how you lie, TJ. The wiki article admits no such thing. It’s wonderful how you think you can lie about something anyone can read. Do you really think your imaginary friend can change what they see.
Ah, and again with the Christian claiming the other Christians are “tares” and you still unable to show your version of Christianity is any better than the rest.
Dozens, if not hundreds, of contradictory versions of the cult are preached and Christians try to convert each other all of the time. People do believe in many versions of the cult and other cults, and nothing shows that any are saved at all.
It’s so sweet that you have to claim that Christians are saved no matter which version it is, which isn’t what your cults claim.
Christianity has been splintered since the beginning and Paul’s letters show that well. He gets in such a hissy fit that people aren’t obeying him that he tries to curse them. Such lovely impotence. The nonsense from Philippians shows that splintering as well, with Paul yet again being upset that there are others who don’t agree with him. Again, we see Paul having no idea what Jesus supposedly said. He’s just another cultists attacking his former cult. It’s notable that Paul wants people to imitate him, and not imitate jesus.
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wikipedia – “Most Christian denominations, however, generally hold in common the belief that Jesus is God the Son[note 2]—the Logos incarnated—who ministered, suffered, and died on a cross, but rose from the dead for the salvation of humankind; this message is called the gospel, meaning the “good news”.” – (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity#References)
I concur with wikipedia’s assessment and so do many many many many many other Christians across the globe and thruout history as did Paul in his letter to the Corinthians taht we already discussed. Apparently, you don’t…
This tells me you aren’t even paying attention to our prior conversations. It’s ok. We all make mistakes but if you had been reading my posts attentively you would have never made the comments you just made. I get the feel this is the case with most of what I have commented but I could be wrong. Anyhow, God bless…and take care…
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yes, it says most, which means, not all. You still fail. Your appeals to popularity fallacies still fail and that means your claims of prophecy still fail.
nice of you to resort to lying yet again about me. that’s always fun to see when a christian chooses to damn himself.
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Again, you are not hearing me out. Your response proves you are not paying attention once again.
This is not about popularity; it is about the unity among believers in Jesus on the most fundamental belief of the gospel throughout the ages. From Paul in 50 AD to me in 2026, and to millions—if not billions—of other Christians throughout history and today, we are indeed united on the gospel. Sure, you don’t have complete agreement, and I will admit that, but here it seems as though you are admitting what I was arguing in my earlier points and why I brought Wikipedia into the discussion in the first place. Please reread our discussion.
The gospel message is clear even among all the tares and the wheat and the divisions that were in Corinth, as Paul wrote. Yet the clarity of the gospel remains unchanged, unifying, and clear—even though there is not 100% unity, but perhaps 90%. Christianity has successfully brought the message of salvation to the world in spite of the tares and the divisions, just as Christ and Isaiah predicted. That is my point…..
And now you agree with me, Wikipedia, and GROK that this message is indeed unifying and clear-cut, regardless of how you are about to respond and have responded thus far. This is history, plain and simple. And this history was predicted in advance, and it is no light prediction to foresee Christianity spreading all over the world with the message of salvation—and enduringly so.
“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.” This He said, signifying by what death He would die.” – John 12:32
“For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God” – 1 Corinthians 1:18
“And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. 8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.” – Acts 1:6,7
“Yea, He saith: ‘It is too light a thing that thou shouldest be My servant
To raise up the tribes of Jacob,
And to restore the offspring of Israel;
I will also give thee for a light of the nations,
That My salvation may be unto the end of the earth.’ – JPS Isaiah 49:6
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TJ, I have heard you out and I have pointed out how your claims fail. That you fail doesn’t mean I’ve not read what you’ve claimed. You assume that if I would just read what you claim I ‘d agree with you and reality doesn’t work that way.
There is no unity amongst Christians, no matter how many lies you try to tell. There is no one fundamental belief in the gospels since Christians do not agree on what they mean. Each invents a different jesus that is in these gospels and they do that by picking and choosing what they want out of each gospel. From whenever jesus was supposed to have existed, something Christians do not agree on, to paul and to now, Christians have invented thousands of contradictory versions of what they all want to call Christianity.
There are no millions or billions that agree with you. You try to lie and claim you are “united through the gospel” and then even *you* have to admit that there is no “complete agreement”. So no unity at all, and you are quite a failure in your attempts to lie to me.
Again, yawn, there is no one clear gospel message. Christains can’t even agree on who is saved or how they are saved, so you fail. You each claim to be the wheat, and claim the others to be the tares, and when I watch Christians from outside the cult, it’s quite a hilarious bucket of crabs, each struggling to get out the bucket and show that only their version is the right one.
There is no unity, not even remotely 90%. I know that since I know that Christians do not agree on: free will vs predestination, how to interpret the bible, what jesus is, who is saved, how they are saved, what baptism does and how to do it, what their end times nonsense will be, and on and on. Each version is some mix of all of these differences. So, again, there is no one Christianity, and since there is none, it has never brought the same message of salvation to the world. Your “wheat and tares” divisions are what make different christianities.
Per the bible, this christ prayed to himself/his father that Christianity would not split. Curious how the messiah himself failed to get his own prayer answered by himself/his father. That’s in John 17, BTW.
There is no enduring, just further splintering. I can even watch the silly catholics splintering since they can’t figure out if they want to follow Leo or Trump.
So I don’t agree with you, Wikipedia doesn’t agree with you and grok agrees with anything entered into it. You’re a simply a liar yet again.
Unsurprisngly, the verses from your bible make your argument fail even harder. Curious how the jesus in john is quite different from the jesus in the other gospels, and very different from what Paul ignorantly claims about jesus since Paul has no idea what jesus actually taught. No one received holy power, and again, no one noticed the apostles or christ at all.
All you have are fairy tales. Nations ignore your cult.
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You said, “there is no one clear gospel message”.
I disagree and I believe you will find millions of Christians in greater agreement with me than you and even non believing wikipedia repeated what we believe very clearly so even a nonbeliever should be able to get it.
You said, “There is no unity, not even remotely 90%” and talk about in house disputes amongst Christians who have DO HAVE 90% unity on the gospel!
You again strawman me (probably not on purpose) and are not understanding what I am arguing. Here is what I said, “Yet the clarity of the gospel remains unchanged, unifying, and clear—even though there is not 100% unity, but perhaps 90%.” 90% agreement on the clear gospel by which one must believe in order to be saved!
Here is the gospel once again that unifies Christians everywhere (just go ask any Christian that is actively a Christian) in case you would like to believe and get saved and join the in house disputes and iron sharpening iron even with the “tares” amongst us and come agree with 90% of the rest of us.
“Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, and in which you stand firm. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that He was buried, that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures” – 1 Corinthians 15:1-4
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TJ, you keep returning to the same set of lies again and again. Most of Christianity is not in agreement with you and I can see that just walking to work. Wikipedia doesn’t support your lies, and it’s rather amusing you keep claiming it does.
Your lies about Christians being unified on 90% of the gospel is notably easy to show as wrong, since Christians do not agree on, yet again: how to interpret their bible, on what morals this god wants, on how someone is saved and who is saved, on what heaven and hell are, free will vs predestination, etc.
I know what you are arguing and that is that Christians agree with each other more than I think they do. You have yet to support that claim. The gospel is anything but “clear” since again Christians cannot agree on the above. Christians do not agree on what one must believe in to be saved.
Your repeating cult’s nonsense just reinforces the fact that Christians do not agree on the most basic things. You, as usual, try to cliam that the only true Christians are those who agree with you. I can ask a dozen Christians on how to be saved and I will get a dozen answers since again, Christians do not agree on what is moral, what is a sin, and if I have to do anything or not to be saved.
You are a tare, TJ, per every Christian who disagrees with you. Paul was just one of many claimaints to have the true “gospel”, and he managed to contradict jesus repeatedly.
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Hey, take care for now friend and God bless…
P.S. – I’m sure we will talk again… lol
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yep, more lies from TJ. IT’s always hilarious when they think “god bless” is an effective attack.
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Didn’t mean it as an attack at all. It’s just how I talk and wish the best for others. Take care…
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Sure, TJ. Strange how your god doesn’t even bless its followers, so why would I believe otherwise?
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I am blessed and millions of others Christian will probably tell you the same but I’m sure you have an argument against that so feel free…
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and another baseless claim. If you are “blessed” how does it manifest?
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I am blessed to be amongst the gentiles 2000 years removed from 1 Corinthians 15 and yet still being able to read the same words of faith and agree with Paul and all those who agreed with Paul back then on the gospel of my salvation and trusting myself unto the same gospel (that Jesus died for my sins and rose from the dead). That I get to read text after text of Christians from the NT to the church fathers and the apocrypha (as of late been reading this so I mention it) and am blessed to get to follow Jesus and be amongst those who are attempting to better understand and follow this amazing Jesus that millions and billions of others who have fallen in love with no matter what the nay sayers say and will continue to say… 😉
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Yep, you can’t show that your life is any better than anyone else’s. Curious since you can’t do what jesus promised, that shows you aren’t considered a true follower and aren’t blessed at all.
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“you can’t show that your life is any better than anyone else’s” I don’t know about “anyone else’s” but it is 100% better than myself before trusting in Jesus. Because of Jesus I now have a love for God my Creator and not the sinful things I was into before.
“Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.” – John 6:28,29
The greatest work of God is trusting in Jesus! It takes the miracle of miracles that I am praying for you someday. Take care…
“There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?” – John 3:1-4
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And again, you have nothing, TJ. Any theist of any version can make the same baseless claims. You Christians can’t even agree on what your imaginary friend considers to be a sin, so all you have is your own delusions on what is sinful.
Quoting your cult’s book isn’t impressive. And it’s hilarious how you and every Christian fail to be able to do any ‘works of god’. John 6 is a great example of how the author makes jesus and the apostles idiots who have no idea what each other are saying. It also shows how the author has no idea that Moses and the Israelite elders did see this god.
Every cult makes the same claim “the work of the cult god is trusting the cult god”. No miracles at all, just the lies of a cult that can’t do the miracles its supposed messiah promises.
Keep praying dear. It’s great evidence that Christianity is a lie.
It’s wonderful how your cult’s book can’t agree on how someone is saved.
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You said, “Every cult makes the same claim “the work of the cult god is trusting the cult god””
Do they really?
You said, “It’s wonderful how your cult’s book can’t agree on how someone is saved.”
Nope. Christianity, as I’ve already made clear, has explained the gospel plainly—how anyone can be saved. Paul lays it out in 1 Corinthians 15, repeating what Christians in 50 AD already believed. I understand it, along with millions and even billions of others throughout the last 2,000 years. Wikipedia gets it, GROK gets it, and you seem to be the only one who doesn’t.
“For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.” – 1 Corinthians 1:18
You, along with those who are perishing, may not understand it right now. I still hope—and pray—that someday you all will. But for those of us who are saved, we do understand it. You can keep insisting we don’t, but we do. Take care…
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yes, dear, they really do and that you are too ignorant to know that is typical. It’s lovely how you can’t show I’m wrong, yet again.
Again, christianity can’t agree on how one is saved. Paul and jesus have different ways to be saved so your ignorance is yet again showing you to be a failure.
Jesus says that believe is what gets someone saved (John 3). Jesus also says that being “born again” is the only way to be saved (John 3). Jesus also says that it is works that get you saved, taking care of the sick, etc (Matthe 25).
Paul says that the only way to be saved is that this god having chosen you e.g. “grace” , unless you are a woman, and that childbirth will save you (1 Timothy 2).
so yet again, you have failed and have shown that you are ignorant about what your bible actually says. Your prayers still fail and you are a great bit of evidence how your cult is nonsense.
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Very few religions believe that salvation is a work of God. Please quote passages from other “cults/religions” that actually teach what Jesus taught in John 6:28,29…I don’t doubt there may be a few but not even close to all. It is a minority belief amongst religions/cults!
Again, Paul puts in a brief summary that anybody can understand and know what to believe to be saved. Again, even wikipedia gets it and so do I and millions of others and this has been consistent from 1st to the 21st Century and will be beyond. I will repeat once again:
“Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, and in which you stand firm. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that He was buried, that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures…” – 1 Corinthians 15:1-4
Matthew, Mark, Luke and John all agree that Christ died, was buried and was raised the third day. This is the climax of all 4 gospels. If one doesn’t believe the gospel that all 4 gospels and Paul repeats then that one is not a believer. It’s as simple as that. Anybody can get this including you.
There is no inconsistency. The rest is concerning one’s sanctification and growth and maturity as a believer and for the believer to study and come to terms with to better understand over time.
“For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance as our way of life.” – Ephesians 2:8,9
Good works will follow faith but it is a fruit of faith not a way to be saved. So, the good works Jesus is speaking of can only be good if it follows faith. The sheep in Matthew 25 are already calling Jesus Lord. So, are the goats you might say but none the less both are calling Jesus Lord. So, the best you can say is that Jesus is not at all contradicting Paul or vice a versa but rather calling the nations to be sure they are indeed trusting in Jesus and their works can be revealing of one’s faith.
“Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves.” – 2 Corinthians 13:5
“Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.” – Philippians 2:12,13
And notice that the letter of Philippians is addressing those who already believe:
“Paul and Timothy, bondservants of Jesus Christ,To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, with the bishops and deacons: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.” – Philippians 1:1-3
Also, bear in mind that both of these letters by Paul date to mid 1st century by scholars of most all persuasions. So, we have a very early attestation as to what early Christians believed which I believe to this day also and millions of others do throughout the centuries.
Take care…
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ROFL. Chrstians can’t even agree on how salvation works, so your grace based nonsense isn’t what all Christians believe. Again, your delusion that being unique makes soemthing true fails again. And John 6 is rather amusing since every cult says to believe in its gods. It’s entertaining that the author has jesus unable to actually answer the question asked.
“28 Then they said to him, ‘What must we do to perform the works of God?’ 29 Jesus answered them, ‘This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.’ 30 So they said to him, ‘What sign are you going to give us then, so that we may see it and believe you? What work are you performing?”
That your jesus says that no one can come to this god except if allowed by this god shows that the common Christian lie about free will fails.
Paul makes up what he claims is how to be saved, which is repeatedly contradicted by jesus who contradicts himself. Again, you try to use an appeal to popularity fallacy and you still fail to show that your god merely exiss. The nonsense from 1 Corinthians still fails since, again, Paul has no idea what supposedly happened, per the gospels. He makes it up, just like the gospels do. No adam, no christ, just myths. No resurrected jews as per the gospel of matthew, Paul has no idea that supposedly happened.
The gospel authors do not even agree on that much since the days they each claim don’t end up with JC resurrecting on the third day in all of them. Christians must come up with nonsense on how the jews supposedly counted days to get around that little problem. Again, it isn’t just this that Christians must believe to be Christians. You each claim that only the other things you each invent is what also counts. Paul claims that anyone who doesn’t agree with him isn’t a true believer, just like every other Christian. “ 8 But even if we or an angel[b] from heaven should proclaim to you a gospel contrary to what we proclaimed to you, let that one be accursed! 9 As we have said before, so now I repeat, if anyone proclaims to you a gospel contrary to what you received, let that one be accursed!” Galatians 1
It’s great how you keep trying to lie when it comes to the inconsistency in the bible. Unsurprsingly, there is no growth, but entirely different methods of being saved. Again, just so I can get to see you choose to lie repeatedly, this how jesus and paul contradict each other:
Jesus says that believe is what gets someone saved (John 3). Jesus also says that being “born again” is the only way to be saved (John 3). Jesus also says that it is works that get you saved, taking care of the sick, etc (Matthe 25).
Paul says that the only way to be saved is that this god having chosen you e.g. “grace” , unless you are a woman, and that childbirth will save you (1 Timothy 2).
And you have also given yet another verse from Ephesians that shows how they contradict each other. How nice of you.
All humans do “good works” and your cult isn’t necessary for them, so your argument fails yet again. in Matthew, Jesus says that one can believe and worship him, and yet not do any works and thus one is not saved. Grace doesn’t help, so your claims fail . Jesus repeatedly contradicts paul, no matter how many times you lie ,dear.
It’s notable how 2 Corinthians (a forgery made in Pauls name) shows that the author also was ignorant about jesus since he has no idea what jesus supposedly said about how his true followers will be able to do miracles like him.
Yep, the nonsense in Philipians is to believers, is from at least three different sources, and still no evidence for your imaginary friend. It’s hilarious how Paul has to lie that he somehow was in contact with the imperial guard. Yep, the letters are decades after the supposed events, events that no one noticed happening. What you have is that Christians from the very beginning didn’t agree. Even Philipians has that two of Paul’s companions didn’t agree.
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You said: “All humans do “good works” and your cult isn’t necessary for them, so your argument fails yet again.”
According to you but not in Christ’s view.
According to Scripture, all our righteousness is like filthy rags if it’s not rooted in love for God. Jesus taught that the GREATEST commandment is to love the Lord your God with all your soul. So if our good works come from impure or self-serving motives, anti-God motives then they aren’t truly good. The only right motive is love for God—not love at His expense. Christians obey God because He first loved us, and the greatest display of that love is the cross. We do good in honor of the King not in disrespect of the Almighty Creator of Heaven and Earth. But if our good works honor another king—or ourselves—they defy God, and that is not good. To Jesus this matters: “But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.” – Luke 11:42
If “love of God” is a small thing to you then there you go.
You said: “It’s notable how 2 Corinthians (a forgery made in Pauls name)”
The consensus of scholars across the spectrum is not that 2 Corinthians is a forgery. It is consider authentically Pauline and they date it to 50ish AD. A wonderful attestation to what early Christians believe and still do.
You said: “shows that the author also was ignorant about jesus since he has no idea what jesus supposedly said about how his true followers will be able to do miracles like him.”
Or just had a better understanding and interpretation of the times than you do 2000 years removed. I’ll stick with Paul.
You said: “Yep, the nonsense in Philipians is to believers, is from at least three different sources….”
This is a view of some scholars but has some testing to do but I have no problem with it. They still believe it to be authentically Pauline and dates to 50ish AD which again is a great attestation to what 1st century Christians believed.
You said: “It’s hilarious how Paul has to lie that he somehow was in contact with the imperial guard.”
I’ll trust Paul’s writing(s) in 50AD over you, anyday.
“Yep, the letters are decades after the supposed events, events that no one noticed happening.”
We already discussed this earlier. No need to hash this up again.
You said: “What you have is that Christians from the very beginning didn’t agree. Even Philipians has that two of Paul’s companions didn’t agree.”
And yet even so the gospel is clear and all else is written for Christian maturity, growth, understanding, sharpening, sanctification, etc etc etc. This is part of being a Christian working out our differences.
It probably won’t be understood properly by skeptics of everything Jesus, Pauline, Christian, etc etc etc. Of course, you conclude the way you do.
Oh and you mentioned Galatians. Another early Pauline epistle as Scripture claims and the scholars agree. Written 50ish AD and authentically Pauline.
You said something to the effect of “still no evidence”.
It appears we need to get some bias’s out of the way first. Take care, oh skeptic of all things Godly thus nullifying all your good works as not Godly at all (but as “filthy rages” as in Isaiah we read somewhere) and therefore not good at all either.
However, Jesus did come to save sinners like you and I. Thus, the cross….
“But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.” – Isaiah 64:6
It doesn’t have to be this way. Trust Jesus over self and over whatever it is you are trusting over Him.
“thou shalt call His name Jesus: for He shall save His people from their sins” – Matthew 1:21
The greatest sin would be to violate the greatest commandment:
“Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment…” – Matthew 22:36-38
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Yep, more fail from TJ. How nice. Curious how you can’t even show your christ exists much less that it agrees with you.
As for what your silly cult’s book says, yep, it does say quite a bit of nonsense: “ that you would tear open the heavens and come down, so that the mountains would quake at your presence—
2 [a] as when fire kindles brushwood and the fire causes water to boil—to make your name known to your adversaries, so that the nations might tremble at your presence!3 When you did awesome deeds that we did not expect, you came down, the mountains quaked at your presence.4 From ages past no one has heard, no ear has perceived,no eye has seen any God besides you, who works for those who wait for him.5 You meet those who gladly do right, those who remember you in your ways.But you were angry, and we sinned; because you hid yourself we transgressed.6 We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a filthy cloth. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.”
Isaiah 64 has “Isaiah” complaining that his god has disappeared, and that the Israelites have followed bad teachings. As often happens, Christians pick and choose their way through the bible and take their nonsense out of context so it means nothing. Your jesus says that being righteous isn’t filthy rags, but that righteousness is the only way one will get into heaven, and it has to be greater than the scribes and pharisees (Matthew 5).
Doing good and being righteous are different things. Righteousness is a cult bit of nonsense. Good is an opinion, and generally helps others. So your cult’s nonsense fails again. No one needs to believe in your cult to do good.
And dear, Christians only have self-serving motives. You are all desperate to get into heaven and avoid hell. No love is involved, just fear and obeidence You don’t care about anyone else but yourselves. You only do good to get your magic afterlife. Some of you don’t even do good, but depend on the “grace” nonsense.
Unsurprsingly, you also choose to lie about 2 Corinthians too. “nformation on 2 Corinthians
Second Corinthians is one of the four letters of Paul known as the Hauptbriefe, which are universally accepted to contain authentic Pauline correspondence.
Werner Georg Kummel would like to view the letter to be a whole composed by the apostle Paul on one occasion (Introduction to the New Testament, pp. 287-293).
However, there are difficulties that have suggested to several commentators that 2 Corinthians has been compiled from several pieces of correspondence. Since the “sorrowful letter” mentioned in 2:4 does not describe 1 Corinthians, we know that Paul had written at least three letters to the Corinthians. A quite reasonable suggestion is that the last four chapters contain the “sorrowful letter” that is mentioned in 2:4.
Other evidence bears out this view. Edgar J. Goodspeed notes a few considerations that suggest disunity in 2 Corinthians (An Introduction to the New Testament, pp. 58-59). On the one hand, “From the beginning through chapter 9 it is pervaded by a sense of harmony, reconciliation, and comfort.” On the other, “With the beginning of chapter 10 we are once more in the midst of personal misunderstanding and bitterness, and these continue to dominate the letter to the end . . . This undeniable incongruity between the two parts of II Corinthians naturally suggests that we have in it two letters instead of one – one conciliatory and gratified, the other injured and incensed. And as the early part of II Corinthians clearly looks back upon a painful, regretted letter, the possibility suggests itself that we actually have that letter in chapters 10-13.”
Norman Perrin offers the following solution with five Pauline fragments and one non-Pauline interpolation (The New Testament: An Introduction, pp. 104-105).
• Verses 2:14-6:13 and 7:2-4 are “part of a letter that Paul wrote to defend himself and his authority against opponents who came to Corinth bearing letters of recommendation from Christian communities in which they had previously worked and who rapidly assumed positions of authority in the Corinthian community.”
• Verses 10:1-13:14 contain the sorrowful letter. After his first unsuccessful attempt to assert his authority with the Corinthian community failed, Paul visited the church and was humiliated in public (2:5, 7:12). After this incident, from Ephesus Paul wrote against the “superlative apostles” who appealed to visions and miracle-working as proof of their authority. Paul himself “appeals to the original effectiveness of the gospel he preached in Corinth so as not to be a burden on his converts, and to his own Jewish heritage and his sufferings as a servant of Christ” in order to win back authority in Corinth.
• Verses 1:1-2:13 and 7:5-16 are a “letter of reconciliation.” After the success achieved through his painful letter, Paul “wrote a letter rejoicing in the resumption of good relations between him and the Corinthian Christian community.”
• Verse 8:1-24 are “part of a letter of recommendation for Titus as organizer of the collection of saints in Jerusalem.” It is impossible to know the relationship between this letter and the rest of Paul’s correspondence with Corinth.
• Verses 9:1-15 are “part of a letter concerning the collection for the saints.” It is again impossible to determine this letter’s relationship to the rest of Paul’s letters to Corinth.
• Finally, verses 6:14-7:1 contain a fragment that has next to no connection to Paul in ideas or wording, although it does have some affinities with the Dead Sea Scrolls.
Kummel allows that 6:14-7:1 is interpolated yet still maintains that it is Pauline. However, Joseph Fitzmyer has argued that 6:14-7:1 is an interpolation from a document at Qumran in an essay reproduced in The Semitic Background of the New Testament, pp. 205-217. There are three reasons to posit that the passage is interpolated: “the paragraph radically interrupts the chain of thought between 6:13 and 7:2,” the passage is “a unit intelligible in itself,” and “six of the key-words in the passage are not found elsewhere in the New Testament.” Fitzmyer argues that references to triple dualism, the opposition to idols, the temple of God, separation from all impurity, and the concatenation of Old Testament texts point to a Qumranic origin for the interpolated fragment.” – earlychristanwritings website
I also love how you destroy your own claims by saying that people 2000 years removed can’t know what was actually meant in the bible. “Or just had a better understanding and interpretation of the times than you do 2000 years removed. I’ll stick with Paul.“ Curious how this means your interpretation is simply a lie.
I know you have no problem with the lies in your bible, TJ. Your admission that you ignore how your bible is full of forgeries, and invented nonsense means your opinion is worthless. If you need no evidence to claim something is true, then you are gullible, ignorant and as usual, a liar.
Again, curious how no one noticed any major earthquake, the sky darkening and the dead rising from the graves. You claim to trust paul but you can’t explain why paul had no idea these things happened.
And yet the gospel isn’t clear and Christians didn’t agree at the very beginning, so your lies fail yet again. Unsurpsringly, christains have murdered each other “working out their differences”, and their god literally did nothing to stop that.
It’s so nice to see you have nothing godly at all, just the typical lies of a cultist and a fraud. I do good works and nothing nullifies them at all, especially your cult.
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You said “what your silly cult’s book says…nonsense”.
Again, how can any of your deeds be considered good biblically speaking. You are evidence that one’s deeds are indeed as filthy rages as they are all done in rejection of God with no love in your heart for God. All I am saying is that a good deed according to the Bible is not good unless the heart is right toward God and yours isn’t. The only way a heart will be made right toward God so that one can actually do a good deed is thru Jesus Christ.
You said “Isaiah 64 has “Isaiah” complaining that his god has disappeared, and that Israelites have followed bad teachings.”
Yep AND Isaiah confesses himself to be right along with them does he not: “WE have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a filthy cloth. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away” – Isaiah 64:6
To be made right with God one must be made right with Him and deeds done in antagonism toward Him is no way to do that.
You said “Your jesus says that being righteous isn’t filthy rags, but that righteousness is the only way one will get into heaven, and it has to be greater than the scribes and pharisees (Matthew 5).”
Yes, He did say this but taking all in context we understand that the righteousness that exceeds that of the Scribes and the Pharisees is not attainable in and of ourselves. Look at how Jesus describes that the righteousness that exceeds must, also be in the heart that even lust in committing adultery and not just outward obedience. The motives of the heart matters not just actual deeds. No one has this righteousness that Jesus describes except Him.
Jesus, also said: “this parable unto certain which TRUSTED THEMSELVES THAT THEY WERE RIGHTEOUS, and despised others: Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.” – Luke 18:9-14
We are to seek His righteousness as His righteousness is the only righteousness that exceeds and never at the expense of God Himself as you are currently doing.
“But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness;” – Jesus
“Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment.” – matthew 22:36-28
Joseph, did not commit adultery with Potipher’s wife because it would be a terrible thing to do to his really good master but it would also not be the right thing to do unto his Heavenly Master. “how can I do this thing and sin against God”- Joseph from Genesis 39:9.
Deeds done against God are hardly good at all, Biblically, speaking. Now if there is no god then good deeds become opinions as you believe.
I am not saying you believe in God but I am saying this is what the Scripture do teach. These are very Biblical principles. You can say they aren’t and argue they aren’t and say I am lying or something but I don’t see how I am.
I have no reason to believe that “Good is an opinion, and generally helps others.”
Why is helping others good?
Concerning 2 Corinthians. You said, “It’s notable how 2 Corinthians (a forgery made in Pauls name)”
And I responded with: “The consensus of scholars across the spectrum is not that 2 Corinthians is a forgery. It is consider authentically Pauline and they date it to 50ish AD. A wonderful attestation to what early Christians believe and still do.”
You claimed 2 Corinthians to be a FORGERY and I said this is not the scholarly consensus. Wikipedia is in agreement with me:
“While there is LITTLE DOUBT among scholars that PAUL IS THE AUTHOR, there is discussion over whether the Epistle was originally one letter or composed from two or more of Paul’s letters.” – Wikipedia
You said “the gospel isn’t clear”
We already went over this. Even Wikipedia gets this:
“Most Christian denominations, however, generally hold in common the belief that Jesus is God the Son[note 2]—the Logos incarnated—who ministered, suffered, and died on a cross, but rose from the dead for the salvation of humankind; this message is called the gospel, meaning the “good news”.
If wikipedia gets it so can you.
You said “Unsurpsringly, christains have murdered each other “working out their differences”
Some have but certainly not us all. There have been many many many more Christians who have not murdered each other as they were working out their difference. Jesus told us to expect the “tares” amongst the “wheat”. This is no evidence against Christianity whatsoever when Jesus claimed this would happen and there are plenty of “wheat” in this world too and the gospel of salvation remains clear yet thru it all. (Isaiah 49:6)
P.S. – I forgot about this paragraph of yours:
You said “And dear, Christians only have self-serving motives. You are all desperate to get into heaven and avoid hell. No love is involved, just fear and obeidence You don’t care about anyone else but yourselves. You only do good to get your magic afterlife. Some of you don’t even do good, but depend on the “grace” nonsense.”
If this is true of Christians then I would agree with you. But I know many a Christian who love God like Job and give their lives for others to know and love God. If it is all about as you say it is I wouldn’t be a Christian.
““And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.” – John 17:3
And I get to begin this in this life even before any afterlife which I do look forward too and avoiding hell but not without my amazing God and Savior and Lord. Never at His expense…
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Indeed, how can any deeds be considered good biblically speaking since Christians can’t agree on what their god considers “good”? Unsurprisngly, no one’s deeds are “filthy rags” and it is only your cult’s nonsense that claims this to be true. No love for your imaginary friend needed at all, TJ. That your god is so pathetic to need constant stroking shows how it is not worthy of love, even if it were real.
Isaiah is a typical cultist who has to claim it’s his fault and not the fault of the lunatic god.
Again, unsurprisingly, Christians can’t agree on how one is right with their god, with each offering different claims. I don’t do deeds in antagonism of your imaginary friend, dear. I just do deeds. Your delusion that your god is important to me is rather amusing.
As usual, there is no context in your bible since each book was written separately. Your claim that no one can attain this supposed righteousness, but jesus himself says one can. So you attempt to lie yet again about what your bible actually says. It’s notable how jesus neve says that no one is righteous but him. He always says it is attainable.
The parable in Luke 18 is interesting and it is notable how it doesn’t say what you claim. It says that one can’t know one’s self as righteous but one must submit to this god, and that would be by following the commandments. You like to claim “context” but you ignore the context that is within that chapter, where jesus speaks to the rich young man and says how to be righteous.
Again, you make up what you want, and claim that the scripture teaches what you want. Every Christian claims that only they have the “biblical principles” and not one Christian can show that theirs are any better than the rest. You don’t see how you fail since no Christian does.
You don’t want to believe that good is an opinion and generally helps others. You need to believe that your cult’s claims are true. Helping others gets help for one’s self.
The gospel isn’t clear, and again, Christians do not agree. The quote from Wiki you use shows that this is the case since it says “generally”, and “most”. Do you not understand what those mean, TJ? They don’t agree on which jesus supposedly does all of these things, and thus do not agree at all.
Christians have murdered each other and their leadership condoned it, so your lies to try to claim that since some Christians didn’t murderer each other, I can’t point this out fails. The only reason Christians don’t still murder each other is thanks to secular laws. There is plenty of evidence against all of the versions of Christianity, and guess what that evidence is? All of the versions of Christianity that don’t agree with the others. No wheat, no tares, just ignorant cultists attacking each other constantly. It’s quite a circular firing squad.
There are no Christians who love their imaginary friend like Job since Job is an imaginary character. Each Christian gives because they think they will get. And that’s exactly why you are a Christian. That quote from the gospel of John underlines that.
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You said, “Indeed, how can any deeds be considered good biblically speaking since Christians can’t agree on what their god considers “good”?”
Jesus makes the most clearest statement what the first and great commandment is which any Christian and any non Christian can read and understand and agree on what Jesus said. This is not hard to do let us read together:
“Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment.” – Matthew 22:36-38
This is not stroking God constantly. This is having a relationship with God that He desires to have with us and some of us desire to have also. If you desire this not then all else that follows is from a stubborn heart toward this God and your deeds will only pile up against you.
You said “Isaiah is a typical cultist who has to claim it’s his fault and not the fault of the lunatic god.”
And if said God is indeed God then your good deeds are indeed “filthy” in His sight as you continue to break the “first and great commandment” by calling the Creator of Heaven and Earth a “lunatic god”. That’s all I’m saying. I know you don’t believe this god. That’s obvious…
Your said “The parable in Luke 18 is interesting and it is notable how it doesn’t say what you claim. It says that one can’t know one’s self as righteous but one must submit to this god, and that would be by following the commandments.”
I’ll let the readers read the parable itself to see if what you claim about it is true or what I did. I’ll just emphasize the reason why Jesus spoke the parable: “And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others…” – Luke 18:9
You said: “You don’t want to believe that good is an opinion and generally helps others.”
No, I asked you “why is helping others good?” If this is all you got then OK but I dont find it convincing.
“The gospel isn’t clear, and again, Christians do not agree. The quote from Wiki you use shows that this is the case since it says “generally”, and “most”.”
I know exactly what that means. “Most” christians means most christians.
You said “The only reason Christians don’t still murder each other is thanks to secular laws.”
Nope. There were plenty of Christians before any secular laws that were not murdering each other before, during and after secular laws. How many christian leaders have murdered other christians versus how many christian leaders who have done nothing of the sort? Let’s say it’s 1 in 10. Is it fair to over generalize those 1 over the other 9 to then be giving an accurate portrayal of Christianity. Or are you strawmanning us here with this argument.
You said “All of the versions of Christianity that don’t agree with the others.”
Not on all things but on the essentials and I just pointed one concerning the gospels we have “most” in agreement. I would make another essential point that “most” christians agree on is that there is a Creator of Heaven and Earth. You seem to judge the “most” by the few but again is this a fair representation of Christianity to take the 1 in 10 and over generalize that to the whole. This is a strawman argument.
“There are no Christians who love their imaginary friend like Job since Job is an imaginary character. Each Christian gives because they think they will get. And that’s exactly why you are a Christian.”
Says you…
You said “That quote from the gospel of John underlines that.”
I will let the verse stand on its own and repeat it:
““And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.” – John 17:3
Take care
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And yet more false claims from you. Funny how Christians do not agree on which of the commandments to follow, so which of the commandments under the supposed “two” jesus mentions are to be followed, dear? Jesus never says that any of the commandments can be ignored. Matthew 5 is quite clear and the heavens and earth are still right here.
Notable how you pick and choose what verses you show me, in your need to try to lie about what the bible actually says. Funny how you just evidently “missed” the last verse in that set. 34 When the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together, 35 and one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question to test him. 36 “Teacher, which commandment in the law is the greatest?” 37 He said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the greatest and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Unsurprsingly, obedience and adulation is stroking this god constantly. And if it needs this, it isn’t much of a god. So your nonsense about Isaiah also fails.
You have no readers, dear, so your lies still fail. It’s hilarious when you can’t show I’m wrong, you try to appeal to people who don’t exist as if they would support you.
Again, here we have you not believing that good is an opinion and generally helps others. I told you why helping others is good e.g. is beneficial to you in addition to others. Do you really think I care if an ignorant cultist finds something convincing?
And again, it’s great that you have no idea what “generally” and “most” mean. Both do not mean all, as you try to claim repeatedly. Christians do not agree on the most basic things, things that are literally considered doctrine by various version.
Unsurprsingly the only christains who weren’t murdering each other were of the same version, so your excuses again fail miserably. Until secular law took over, each pope ordered and condoned the murder and torture of other Christians. Luther did the same. Queen Elizabeth I was head of the Anglican church and also condoned that other types of Christians be murdered. So your 1 in ten fails since each of those leaders had hundreds if not thousands under them obeying their commands.
Again, Christians do not agree on what they even claim as “essentials”. They do not agree on:
Free will vs predetermination
How to interpret the bible
What morals this god wants
What this god considers to be a sin
Who is saved
How someone is saved
Is hell forever or not, is it torture or not
Does intercession work or not
Most, if not all, theists in general agree that there is a “creator” and surprise, all theists believe in different ones, even Christians.
Yep, says me and surprise, you can’t deny it. How nice of you to show me right yet again. And there you are trying to pretend someone would agree with you when no one does.
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You said: “Funny how Christians do not agree on which of the commandments to follow…”
Are you saying that Christians do not agree with Jesus on the first and great of all the commandments? Cause that was all I was making a point of. We do agree with Jesus.
You said, “Jesus never says that any of the commandments can be ignored.”
Neither did I.
You said “Again, here we have you not believing that good is an opinion and generally helps others. I told you why helping others is good e.g. is beneficial to you in addition to others.”
So how does one decide what is beneficial to one self in addition to others? What makes something beneficial or not? And what if doing something good doesn’t benefit yourself in addition to others?
You said “Christians do not agree on the most basic things, things that are literally considered doctrine by various version.”
There is much more we agree on than you think but I was talking about the gospel. Sure not 100% agreement as I never argued that but “most” christians do agree concerning the gospel. I proved this by going outside of you and myself to Grok and you rejected Grok and so I quoted wikipedia. Never claimed every christian agrees but “most” do.
You said “So your 1 in ten fails since each of those leaders had hundreds if not thousands under them obeying their commands.”
Do you know the estimated amount of Christians while Luther was alive or when Queen Elizabeth was alive or whatever pope or pope’s you may be referring to?
You said, “Again, Christians do not agree on what they even claim as “essentials”. They do not agree on:
Free will vs predetermination
How to interpret the bible
What morals this god wants
What this god considers to be a sin
Who is saved
How someone is saved
Is hell forever or not, is it torture or not
Does intercession work or not”
I agree but even despite these disagreements amongst believers on various issues these are CHRISTIANS having these disagreements. One thing you have seemed to agree with is what Grok and Wikipedia plainly points out that “most” Christians have the gospel in common and do not disagree. Nobody expects 100 percent agreement but “most” Christians do agree on the Gospel.
You said “Most, if not all, theists in general agree that there is a “creator”….
Yep! So you admit no disagreement on this. Will you also admit that “most” Christians agree that the Gospel of Matthew is Scripture?
Take care
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No, dear, I’m saying that Christians can’t agree on which commandments to follow. Jesus supposedly said that *all* of the commandments come from the the two he mentions, which means that all of the commandments are to be followed. Christians do not follow all of the commandments and thus they do not follow the same laws.
Again, Christians do not all agree with the same jesus, since you do not agree on what this jesus wants. Each of you makes up your own jesus. You each ignore commandments, TJ. It is a commandment to kill adulterers. How many have you killed? It’s a commandment to kill disobedient children. How many have you killed? How many male homosexuals have you killed? Do you shave, TJ? That’s a no-no. Do you wear poly/cotton shirts? That’s also a no-no.
ROFL. It’s so sweet that you admit you have no idea what is beneficial to you. Really, TJ? Do you even know what the word beneficial means? Doing something good always benefits yourself in addition to others. Even if you sacrifice yourself by throwing yourself on a grenade for others, you benefit from the knowledge you cared for them.
Again, you try to ignore how Christians differ and whine that you agree on more than I think. I’ve repeatedly shown how that is simply a lie, dear. You do not agree on the gospel either since you do not agree on what jesus has taught. As soon as any Christian claims a difference, you all cease to have the any truth since not one of you can show that your version is any better than the rest. So your appeal to “most” still fails.
It’s hilarious that you desperately try to change the subject to how many Christians existed when luther was alive, etc. You can’t show that I’m wrong, can you, dear? BTW “Most reliable historical estimates place the global Christian population in this period at roughly 60–100 million, with many sources converging around 65–80 million around the year 1500 (early 16th century), rising modestly by 1600 due to natural growth in Europe, early colonial conversions in the Americas and parts of Asia, and some losses from events like the Reformation divisions or plagues.”
Do you even know when Luther and Queen Elizabeth I existed?
Unsurprsingly, Christians don’t consider those who disagree on the doctrinal items I mentioned to be Christians. That’s why when christiansn claim that there are billions of Christians, it’s simply a lie. Each version claims that only they have the one true christanity. Catholics, protestants, Calvinists, anabaptists, etc, have constantly and consistently attacked each other. Reality doesn’t change for your delusions. Wiki and you are simply wrong and most still doesn’t say all. My list is all of the things that they do not agree on. That you have three agreements out of hundreds of disagreements is notable. If there is one supposed magical truth, yes, I do expect 100% agreement.
Yep, people agree that there is a creator, and not a single one of you can show that one exists. It’s hilarious how you depend on a appeal to popularity fallacy. Most Christians say that the gospel of matthew is scripture. They do not agree on what it means and each interprets it differently, so they do not agree on which version of the gospel is scripture.
btw, the quote above about number of christians is from grok, and is confirmed by google’s AI too.
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You said “No, dear, I’m saying that Christians can’t agree on which commandments to follow. Jesus supposedly said that *all* of the commandments come from the the two he mentions…”
But we do agree with Jesus that the first and great commandment is to love God. I was just pointing out another item that Christians agree on which item is more essential to those following. I agree that there are disagreements but you also must agree that there are things Christians have in agreement too.
You said “Doing something good always benefits yourself in addition to others.”
Maybe and maybe not. I believe it is eternally beneficial for one to trust in Jesus for his or her salvation. Do you believe this to be beneficial? So, what is beneficial to one may not be to another and vice a versa.
You said “Yep, people agree that there is a creator…”
Thanks for the admission. I would bet there is somebody out there claiming Christian and doesnt believe in a creator. But they would not be a true reprentation of the truths that Christianity has brought to the world as predicted in Isaiah 49:6 and Acts 1:6,7. I dont need 100% agreement to get a flavor and a good jist to put Christianity in a category of Christianity like most scholars of religion across the spectrum do. You apparently do…
We have our differences but we have some essentials down that if they were not there none would even get off the ground like the Gospel of Matthew. We Christians do not have to argue as whether or not the Gospel of Matthew is from God and some things we will agree upon and some we won’t and we are to grow in our faith but we do have much in common that enable even the secular scholars to call us Christians despite our differences.
Take care.
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