“In Coming To Faith Through Dawkins, Nick Berryman’s Essay “Coming To Faith via The God Delusion” represents a common experience: finding out that Richard Dawkins gave ill consideration to more advanced arguments for the faith in favor of debunking strawman arguments for the Christian faith. Dawkins’ arguments are loaded with emotional reasoning, not scientific reasoning. Nick’s essay emphasizes how witnessing these flaws led him from atheism to Christianity. Indeed, a reasonable faith is there for all who want to critically examine and come to better understand our world!”
1love1god.com 
oh dear, the “sophisticated theologian” claim. Sorry, not one of the arguments for your god work, since they never get to your god. Trying to claim that there are more “more advanced arguments” is rather silly, since you can’t show those true either.
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And so the universe came into existence all by its lonely self…Try proving that! Or maybe it just eternally was…prove that! Both sides require a little exercising of humble faith. I have, by grace, concluded that God makes sense rather than chance.
I believe in God you believe in chance. The proof is that God makes sense, whereas chance is nothing to get sense from at all.
God bless you, my friend, and I will still keep praying that He opens your eyes someday….lol. Take care
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There is far more evidence for the universe coming from nothing that you have that your god exists, TJ. The big bang theory is a scientific theory since it is predictive. We have seen what it predicts we will.
I don’t elieve in chance. I accept that the laws of physics exist. Still no evidence for any gods.
No one needs faith, or “humble faith” when looking at facts. You need blind belief in your imaginary nonsense that you have no evidence for.
Yep, you’ll keep praying and giving me yet more evidence that your claims are simply false since you are a fraud per your own bible, TJ.
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You said: “I don’t believe in chance.” How else do you as an atheist explain the existence of the laws of physics if there is no God? So, you don’t believe they are there by chance, then how are they there? They just are!? with no rationale as to how or why they are? Is this not maybe just as bad, if not worse than chance? Would you accept this explanation from me that God just is or He is by chance? At least God is an intelligent being and so I can get somewhere rationally but as I see it you can’t.
So, I find it rational to believe that things exist because God is, as opposed to, because of chance or they just are.
The only rational answer is our rational/intelligent Creator! I would argue it’s common sense. We know this, but we suppress this knowledge in explanations like chance or they just are, which are just beliefs that can’t make intelligent sense under cross examination!
So far, atheism seems to evidence forth what the Scriptures state will happen when we reject our Creator’s existence in Romans 1:22,23:
“Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man..”
So, we start believing in irrational explanations to our existence and start worshipping idols and one of those idols is made unto corruptible man! We trust more in the Nobel Prize then in the Creator of Heaven and Earth!
Now, maybe I am wrong and I know you are about to correct my reasoning and I’m open to this as my reasoning is fallible and finite and able to be corrupted. Even if I am not able to argue as proper as I should or convince you of Jesus I am ok with that. His existence doesn’t depend on my fallible mind or even ability to get my head around all things God nor yours.
The Gospel is the Power of God unto salvation for those who believe:
Jesus died on the cross for sinners like you and I. We rebelled against our Creator in many ways. God owes rebels nothing but casting away! We must come to believe in Him on His terms not ours. We are not God, He is. We in our vain imaginations are but attempting to put ourselves in authority over God, in that He must answer to us or else we won’t believe. This is sinful behavior that God will never applaud but will allow us to be deluded with as we justly would deserve but, in His mercy, He has opened eyes to see His terms and believe in His terms and come to Him on His terms and we will never see God except on His Godly terms as opposed to our fallible, finite and ungodly (not God honoring) terms. He has been merciful and gracious in sending His only begotten Son that whoever believeth in Him will not perish but have everlasting life.
If you are honest with yourself, you know that you sin. I know that I sin even after trusting in Jesus. I admit it and confess and put my faith in Jesus daily and I hope someday you will confess and admit your sins and come to walk by faith daily with your great God and Savior Jesus Christ! That someday you will willingly and by faith bow the knee to your amazing Creator of Heaven and Earth and all that is in them and His great love that He so condescended to our level to save us by walking in our skin to the cross in our place and then raising from the dead being the one and only with victory over death.
I pray that someday you will be able to savingly believe that all existence has its root in our rational Creators mind! Take care for now…
I apologize for my run on sentences and poor grammar. Laters…
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The laws of physics may simply *be* and have always been. We don’t know. What we do have is more evidence they exist than your god does. You simply claim your god “just is”, so your indignation is rather funny. Unsurprisngly, noting shows your god to exist, be intelligent etc, so you still fail, TJ.
it’s just great when every cultist claims the same things you do, TJ. Your version is no more supported than a Muslims, a Wicca, a Hindu, etc. Unsurprisingly, your ignorant claims of “common sense” can also be used by any of those other theists. Hmm, TJ, are you suppressing the knowledge of allah? of the Goddess? Of Vishnu? That’s how silly it sounds when you try the same lies with atheists.
Yep, Romans 1 is what all cultists claims about their god. Funny how you still fail to show yours is the right one. Happily, Romans 1:22-23 is just more baselss lies, dear. Every cultist like you tries to claim that anyone outside the cult is a fool, and can’t show that to be true at all.
Yep, you believe in irrational explanations for your existence and you worship imaginary nonsense. Yep, we trust nobel prize winners since they have evidence for their work. You have nothing just like any other cultist.
Yep, you are wrong, nothing new there. It’s hilarious how you have to excuse your abject failure, and still have no evidence for your baseless nonsense. Happily, no one needs you or your imaginary god for some “salvation”. I’m quite happy to know that I don’t need some human blood sacrifice by torture.
And whining about sin is just silly since you cultists can’t even agree on what this god considers a sin. It’s lovely thatyou claim your imaginary friend allows people to be deluded, doing nothing at all, just like any imaginary being.
Oh, I am honest with myself, dear, and I know that I don’t sin. Sin is a set of lies from cultists who want to control people. Your prayers fail as usual, TJ, just like any fraud’s. No knee bowing and your sadistic little fantasies will never come true. You are just one more failure who can’t do what jesus promises per your bible.
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But just because you don’t know if the laws of physics have always been and “just are” doesn’t mean that this is the actual case, right? It could be that they are because God is as opposed to not. So, are you really an atheist or an agnostic? You should be an agnostic right? You don’t know that the laws of physics have always been and just is as you yourself admitted and so it is possible that they are because of our rational Creator and not because “we don’t know”. Now this is assuming He exists, which I do believe He does so I will type and speak as if He does rather than that He does not, just like you type as if He isn’t and type under that assumption.
I feel your claims of me being indignate is somewhat of an ad hominem but that is ok.
I am not proving that God exists by a form of argument that you are looking at or for. I am rather saying that without the God of Scripture you cannot have a rational explanation of the laws of physics. Your stuck with “we don’t know” and I would argue you will never know because it must be rationally understood to know and only our rational Creator can give for such a rational explanation and so therefore if you want a rational explanation to the laws of physics there must be the rational God as opposed to not.
You say: how different is Christianity from Wicca as an alternative. I would argue that Wiccans do not have any god whatsoever so they hardly fit the bill. Hindu’s have way too many gods who are hardly rational and consistent with each other to result in such finely tuned laws as physics. And the Islamic god can’t even preserve his own word and truth from falling off the face of the earth let alone sustain the laws of physics for all of creation. The four are different in many many many ways. And those differences make the difference!
You should examine each religion on its own terms and if one religion doesn’t even claim to have a rational god you can discard them easily. Why would laws of physics come from a non rational being. You wouldn’t expect laws at all.
I do believe it is foolish to not trust in God. I call myself a fool every time I realize I am taking things into my own hands like Peter did and trusting myself or others above the Creator. It’s part of growing up and admitting one’s own foolishness. I have admitted to professing myself to be wise and I did become a fool and did many more sinful things just like it says in Romans 1. I don’t call this cultish I call this being humble and being open to the possibility that I and you can play the fool at times. Hey, you said I make baseless claims. Is this not some form of calling me out from your perspective as a fool and so are you of an atheist/agnostic cultist of some sort.
Oh and I am a liar. Isn’t that something cults say of others and their beliefs? And to call me a cultist: is that not what other cults call other cults? So, how are you any different than a cultist but rather an agnostic one!
This is just ad hominem attacks that can be used toward one another. I am just using them on you to show you that you do the very same things that you claim are cultish and therefore….
Now, I do not believe this of you. I am just pointing this out in hopes that maybe we need to discard these ad hominem cultist claims. If a cult by you is defined as such and such and you do the very same things then you are acting cultish according to your own standards. Now I don’t believe in these standards so I would not call you a cultist myself. Just making maybe a valid point but I am sure you don’t see it this way but so far I can’t help but to see it this way. I think we would have a better discussion without the ad hominem.
But if you insist it’s ok.. Anyhow, take care for now. I will continue to apologize for my bad grammar and admit that I could be wrong and feel free to interpret it any way you like.
You know you sin and so do I. I admit this and you have yet too. But that is ok. You can’t tell me that you are on any good terms with any god let alone the Only One True God! You need Jesus like I and all do. Take care….
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Yep, I don’t know, just like you don’t know your god exists and “just is” as you claim. So we are at quite an impass. I have evidence for the laws of physics. You still have nothing for your god, just like every other theist. You agree that all you have is an assumption and you also have the problem you can’t do what jesus promises to true believers.
You may want to look up what an ad hominem is. Most Christians get it wrong. An ad hominem is an argument that is not related to the discussion made to cast doubt on the opponent. Mentioning you are indignant is not irrelevant to the discussion.
You are making the argument that god exists because of a baseless claim that one cannot have a rational explanation for physics, when you admit that you cannot have a rational explanation for your god when you claim it “just is”. Your claim about your god is not rational, J.
Wicca do have a goddess, and some versions have a god too, so you may want to familiarize yourself with other religions. So, they “fit the bill”. You claim “too many gods” when you cannot show that this is a problem, and simply lie that it is “not rational”. Why isn’t it rational, TJ? Why is monotheism supposedly “better”? You claim it has something to do with the false claim of fine tuning. How does it do that?
ROFL. Oh dear, you claim that the Islamic god can’t preserve its own word, and you Christians are so much worse than it is. It’s lovely to see pure hypocrisy on your part, TJ. Funny how Islam has far far fewer versions than christanity does.
I have examined each religion and all of their many variants and yep, they all fail. All religions claim ot have a rational god or gods and offer the same arguments as you do. Why wouldn’t physics come from a “non-rational” being, J? Why can’t they simply be as eternal as your imaginary friend?
I’m sure you do believe it is foolish not to be part of your cult. All cultists feel that way. You take everything into your hands, and you make up excuses why your god does nothing. Believing in imaginary beings isn’t being grown up. Happily, most humans are wiser than an imaginary being, especially one that commits genocide, kills people for things they didn’t do, and supports slavery. As I stated earlier, the claims in Romansn 1 is what any cult claims. You need me to be ‘humble” to not question your nonsense. Not going to happen.
Yep, you make baseless claims. Until you can show evidence you are a Christian and Christianity is true, that’s all you have.
Yep, you are a liar too. Yep, cults can claim people as liars. The difference from me and a cult is that I can support my accusation. Can you?
Of course you believe that of me, that I’m a fool, etc. You are putting that out to run it up the flagpole, and see who salutes. I am not the one who worships something that they can’t show exists, and who claims others are fools for not agreeing with me when I have no evidence to support my claims. I’m still waiting for answers to my questions, J. You believe that something horrible must happen to me at the basis of your religion.
Oh dear, more lies about me “sinning” and “knowing” that I sin. Sorry, both claims are false, since I don’t believe in your cult and it’s attempts to claim certain behavior as “sin”. Repeating false claims about me is simply bearing false witness. And sorry, TJ, I don’t need your jesus at all, nor do I need you which seems to always be what Christians are most upset about. I don’t believe in any gods so I’m not on “good terms” with imaginary nonsense.
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Real quick. The ad hominem issue I will just let the reader decide for themselves. That is a complete side issue, and in my opinion, as opposed to yours, I believe it has nothing to do with what we are discussing and you apparently do, and so be it.
There is a world of difference between a Wiccan god/goddess and God. A Wiccan and a Christian would both be highly offended with such a superficial study as to conclude they are similar or the same. This will come into play in this discussion as only the One True God will be a sufficient foundation for all we know to exist rationally. But I just gave quick assessments from my review of each of these belief systems. I have found all the other religions highly wanting when compared up against Jesus and agnosticism and atheism. This is one of the many many reasons why I believe in Jesus! But one or two reasons only, will never be good enough for my Savior!
I do believe God “just is” but I also believe that He has “eternally just been and is and always will be”. But my argument is not baseless as you, yourself kind of admitted when you rephrased my argument.
You said: “You are making the argument that God (I type as if He does thus the capitalization of the G and you type as if He doesn’t thus you decapitalize but both are beliefs but I have a rational argument for mine at least) exists because of a baseless claim that one cannot have a rational explanation for physics…” almost there but take out the “baseless” as that biases the argument! But then you say this…”when you admit that you cannot have a rational explanation for your God when you claim He “just is”.” This is NOT what I am claiming. Let me rephrase:
The Creator (who “just is and always has been and always will be and all that He describes Himself as via His revelation in Scripture) is the only rational explanation to physics, morality, the universe, mankind etc etc etc. You have presented an alternative that is found wanting. It’s a purely irrational explanation. The laws of physics just are, and that is why they are. And I was just saying that if that is all I had, you would rightly object to it, and so you must reject your own explanation on your own reasoning.
I am not saying that God “just is” etc etc etc, though He is but rather that if God wasn’t “just is” etc etc etc then you have no rational explanation for the laws of physics and thus the God who “just is” etc etc etc must be. God, of course, must be rational Himself and not all beliefs have this same God, so I would argue that against my friends of varying faith and show how their god much like you agnosticism doesn’t make for a rational explanation.
Now, one can just believe that there is no rational explanation. OK, then fine, but this is just a faith no different than what you all seem to condemn in the faithful, and so you all refute your own position once again. It’s like you all settle for the “irrational explanation in the gaps explanation” for the laws of physics etc etc etc.
This reminds me of why the sciences flourished into what it has become in a christian influenced world. They saw the world as designed by the Creator and it was a good thing to discover and find the patterns in the world because they had a rational belief that the Creator was orderly and rational as revealed in Genesis 1 as opposed to the chaotic hedonistic gods of the Greeks. This was the Zeitgeist of the age which arguably was not found in other ages as many historians, though not all would argue.
Anyhow, God matters. Take care for now…
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aka you fail at showing I used an ad hominem, and now must try to claim others will see it. Yep, typical christian faillure.
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